I stayed behind at the resource centre* for an extra hour this evening while C and I debated the merits of women-only spaces. Our library is not strictly a women-only space, in that we allow men to become members and borrow, but we don’t have male staff members or volunteers. Someone questioned the validity of this recently, and I’m not sure I disagree with him – which has left me feeling kind of weird about things at work.
So anyway, it came up this evening, and C and I had an incredibly lengthy debate about it. It was kind of great, and kind of awful. I mean, I have never had so heated a debate with someone I consider a good friend before, so that was the great part (in that I vehemently disagree with her, but we’ll be okay outside of the confines of our disagreement and I felt comfortable arguing with her). But it was really intense, and my hands and voice had started to shake by the end just from all the pent-up energy.
It’s not so much that I can’t see myself ever being persuaded of the benefits of women-only spaces – I can see why you might want a women-only rape crisis centre, and there’s a local swimming pool that holds a women-only afternoon once a week so that Muslim (and other) women can swim, which I think is kind of brilliant, and I’m intrigued by our tiny selection of lesbian separatist literature – but C took this bizarrely essentialist line that really got my back up. Where I was arguing “feminists”, she was arguing “women”, i.e. things are the way they are because of vaginas and penises, not because of political structures. I was arguing that we should be trying to change the world (we are a library full of information on gender and discrimination; we should be doing everything we can to spread that information far and wide, and it doesn’t matter who’s behind the desk), and she was arguing that the world is so full of hostile forces that we, as women, should just retreat to our own spaces, because they are the only safe spaces. She kept saying that if we ever employed a man, he would end up taking over the place and subverting the good work we do, and our library would become just like any other library.
My argument is that, as a feminist library, we are guided by feminist principles and, like any organisation, we have all sorts of screening processes when hiring new employees (job interviews, reference checks). These things should be protection enough. By suggesting that we shouldn’t exclude men as a rule from our staff or volunteer pool, I’m not saying that we should invite the cast of The Footy Show to rewrite our mission statement, I’m just saying that people with penises are as capable of advocating and supporting feminism as we are. I don’t see the point of a society where there is no way forward; where we sit around doing our own thing and having our consciousnesses raised, but have to forever buck against the same system because we don’t want to risk sharing that consciousness and changing the system. The suggestion that gender (or class, or ethnic) barriers are so hard and fast that no identity group will ever really understand another is so limiting – if we could only understand people whose life experiences were exactly like our own, where would we be? And we’re talking about political ideology, not biology. Education can only be a positive thing; and you have to be able to do something with that education, right? I am upset that there are misogynists in the world, but isn’t the ideal solution to change their minds? As far as I can tell, C thinks that some level of misogyny is the inevitable consequence of being male.
I guess the real argument against my position is that we are a potential source of information for women looking to get out of situations of domestic violence, or for women who are survivors of sexual abuse or assault, who might feel uncomfortable asking for help from a male librarian. And I’m not sure where I stand on that. On the one hand, I would hate for anything to make life more difficult for those women. But on the other hand, they do not make up the bulk of our patrons, most of whom are are Women’s Studies students or people looking for lesbian resources. And we are not a counselling service. There are a number of women’s crisis and counselling services around town, to whom we refer clients when necessary. The other issue is that we get very few patrons at all these days, because schools are discontinuing their Women’s Studies programs and we are becoming something of an anachronism because our collection is not very up-to-date. We have to really grovel for funding. I kind of feel that if we shifted our focus to “gender” rather than “women”, we might become more relevant again.
Another thing C was saying was that, by employing a man, we would be taking a job away from a woman – is there some missing link in my thinking? Because that doesn’t make any sense to me. It’s not that I don’t believe in affirmative action – I do – but I just don’t see that the feminist thing to do is to only ever hire women, even as volunteers. Am I so set in my own side of the debate, after so forcefully trying to put forward my case for an hour, that I’m starting to contradict my own principles?
Anyway, after that little diatribe – what do you think about women-only spaces? Are they a good idea? Are they a necessary idea? Are they only a good idea in certain arenas (health services, for example)? Do they make you feel safer? If so, how do you feel outside of those spaces?
Thank you for letting me rant.
* A feminist special library, for anyone not clear on that.
30 April, 2007 at 8:29 pm
[...] Finest Hour has a thought-provoking discussion about women only spaces in relation to libraries. Are there any instances when this might be necessary? What about in the [...]
26 March, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Hey D, to clarify, a friend of mine attended a UN women’s summit and found that the women who attended were crowded out by priests and outnumbered by men who were concerned about the decisions that would be made by a women’s only group (mainly the pro-choice discussions) I think having men make decisions on behalf of women seems flawed and paternal. Not all women consider themselves feminist, some men do, and are our allies but I think that having a library for women run by a man seems to give an impression that a woman, (though women number more than 50% of the population) was unable to hold that job, and I think that the centre could provide an opportunity for affirmative discrimination since women are still outnumbered in management positions. Male volunteers or staff haven’t generally applied for the role, except once since I’ve been here, were admitted and then didn’t attend. Women’s Ed classes are women only mainly as many women have been at risk from men (I’m sorry but violence against women usually involves male perpetrators)I know not all men are violent, I know some women are violent Would we hire a feminist man over a non-feminist woman.. Gender library I feel misses something of womens’ history herstory? and assumes that a background of equity exists when it does not, and this has been the case in the past, when it has not. Writing this I would like to think things are changing though, particularly in countries like Sweden and we have been collecting more on gender topics, though when I see that women are still earning less in the same work roles, being passed over for promotions, or not hired at all on the basis of potential pregnancy thus maternity leave…the same arguments remain.
27 March, 2009 at 3:11 pm
I don’t dispute that the majority of violence against women is perpetrated by men or that women’s history is important or that there is massive disparity between men and women when it comes to labour and pay. I struggle with the comparison between UN summits and libraries, though, because their purpose and context is so different – apples and oranges, etc. It’s neither here nor there.
In the end, maybe it’s just personal – part of it is definitely my privilege talking. When it comes to the dissemination of information, an open dialogue and an active movement for social change, the resource centre feels like a dead-end to me as is (which is not meant as a disparagement of the fantastic work that has gone into it) – but if it’s exactly what other people need it to be, then that’s awesome (and maybe I should just open my own library one day). I think, C., that we have fundamentally different ideas about what libraries are or are for, and neither of us is right or wrong but sometimes it’s hard to move forward with the conversation because of that.
(And I shouldn’t be blogging at work, so I’ll log off now.)
28 March, 2009 at 3:51 am
C., I’ve been thinking about this some more, and this is what I’ve got. But I want to say firstly that I think you do an amazing job and that I know everything is impeded by the funding situation (even when the promised money actually comes through!). Also, I know a tiny, tiny handful of overstretched people can’t undo the accumulated messes of the past few decades. Also, please bear in mind that it’s now 3.50 in the morning, so my proofreading might be a bit off, but anyway – these are my responses to your post:
- Is the resource centre a library for women, or is it a library specialising in feminist resources for the education sector and the community? Do you see these things as synonymous? Because I don’t, and our wires seem to cross on this issue a lot. To me, it’s like that whole “natural-born women” argument all over again.
- What decisions are you making on behalf of women?
- The leap from employing feminist men as paid staff and/or volunteers to men taking over the library and radically altering its mission statement is pretty enormous. Also, the library isn’t run by a single person; it’s run by a board of elected members.
- Is employing men an indication that women can’t do the job (really? Who is going to look at an organisation with either Women’s Studies or Gender Studies in its name and assume it thinks women are incompetent idiots?) or is it a sign that we are making progress? I personally feel impressed and hopeful when I see men and women working together to address gender issues.
- I think the library would do more good in the fight to close the pay gap by highlighting the issue and making information about it readily available to as wide an audience as possible than by employing one woman in what is a pretty insular environment.
- Discrimination against women is much more complicated than men vs. women. Even the example you cited, where women were outnumbered by priests in a UN discussion about abortion, is about much more than men crowding out women – it’s about the power of religious institutions, the peculiar power relations between men and women within religious institutions; it’s about the structure of the United Nations (an problematic organisation in need of massive reform), abortion, etc. C., any discussion of abortion between large numbers of people is going to be a tricky one; I’m pretty sure even you and I have disagreed on the specifics of it. Do you think the discussion would have been any less frustrating if those priests had been nuns?
Just because it is easier to grasp and sympathise with issues that directly affect or are likely to affect you personally, that doesn’t mean that sensitivity and understanding can’t be learned. You yourself have often talked about how far you’ve come during your years at the library – what reason is there to expect that a man (who was already willing to engage with issues of sexist discrimination enough to apply for a job at the resource centre in the first place) wouldn’t gain similar insight over time?
- Libraries are the embodiment of the notion that knowledge is power. It is not important that library staff have vaginas, it is important that they provide access to a comprehensive, focused and useful collection in a respectful manner in order to empower their clients. Libraries are not healthcare providers, and library staff are not qualified as nor employed as counsellors.
- Sexism is only one form of discrimination. Feminism is part of a broader political spectrum that necessarily intersects with other movements that benefit from cooperation between men and women. By excluding men from feminist organisations, we are potentially also excluding women who already see them as allies. If the argument is that feminist issues tend to get lost in the shuffle or that women are discriminated against on the basis of their gender in other movements, then we need to do something active about it, not retreat into ourselves.
- For me, feminism is a positive force. Of course there are people out there who don’t believe in the existence of, or seriousness of, sexism, but we know better and so do plenty of others. Sometimes I feel that there’s something really defensive about the atmosphere at the resource centre, that there’s a fear of open dialogue or real engagement with the community in case someone exposes the whole thing as a sham and another Adelaide women’s organisation bites the dust. But it isn’t a sham, and feminism isn’t going anywhere, although it is always changing. I wish the library were more confident about looking at feminism in new ways instead of always tiptoeing.
As a feminist, it does not feel useful to me to always be looking over my shoulder in case someone’s lurking there waiting to usurp me. I am looking for solidarity and encouragement in a feminist organisation, but I also want that organisation to challenge me enough that I develop the skills to face antifeminism and all those other negative –isms head-on.
- Can the library survive with only Women’s Ed students as borrowers? While I would never seek to downplay the seriousness of abuse survivors’ safety concerns, I’m not sure why it’s appropriate for this to affect the library’s staffing decisions. The interlibrary loan system is already well-used by Women’s Ed students – you rely on it to serve borrowers who live remotely or physically can’t make it up the stairs – how is this any different? And there are always two staff members on duty; it would be perfectly reasonable to stipulate that one of them be female to accommodate client needs. Employing men needn’t necessarily alienate the borrowers.
- While it is important to be respectful of abuse survivors (of anyone), I don’t think we need to patronise them. They’ve got it together enough to go to TAFE, they’re out there in the world, and they can find information about counselling and shelters through the library or nextdoor if they need it. I don’t think any further cottonwool is necessary.
- Which parts of women’s history does “gender” negate? I really, really don’t understand what “Gender Studies” takes away from “Women’s Studies”. I don’t see how it implies a background of equity – as far as I can see, it just broadens the context for sexist discrimination, giving us the opportunity to better understand how to ameliorate the situation. Do you have any specific examples of organisations that abandoned any interest in women’s issues under the Gender banner? And even so, do you think that’s inevitable or is it just something to be aware of and address upfront, should the change ever occur?
- I am not proposing that we all just close our eyes and hope really hard that we wake up in some sort of Icelandic utopia. But if things are not changing as we’d like them to, it won’t help if we just cling to the familiar instead, you know?
25 April, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Women’s only space discussion
http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2008/03/womenonly_space
Women’s Centre
http://io.uwinnipeg.ca/~uwsawc/structure.html
Gender Studies Women’s Studies Debate
http://userpages.umbc.edu/~korenman/wmst/womvsgen2.html
http://ejw.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/1/1/11
incidently nuns I’ve known are pro-contraceptive and pro-choice particularly those that work with women’s shelters etc.
(really, I was suprised too)
miss you
C